01 Jun 2016 13:12:48
been mad busy the last few months, so I wanna get this question in before the election .
who is in or out?

i am still voting out even thou the lab leadership is pro remain (in public anyway)

one thing that really surprised me was the former Greek economist Yanis Varoufakis is pro EU even after the EU/ IMF has imposed crippling repayments that will effect generations of Greeks,

never seen that coming .

 
01 Jun 2016 15:13:04
I shall be voting leave franky, sounds like our greek friend has had a nice fat envelope to suddenly become so pro eu, how could you be when you have seen the mess 1st hand it has left Greece in, on another note it sounds like this vote is going to destroy the tory party so no matter what happens with the vote, at least some good will come out of it, what makes me smile is when each side accuses the other of pie in the sky fantasy world claims, I thought that was the whole basis of being a politician. Dodgy dave is on stoney ground no matter what result he gets, still he can drive away in his wife's 2nd hand Nissan micra. I have no doubt sadly that the vote will be rigged so they get the result they want.

 
01 Jun 2016 15:48:19
I don't get to vote franky but if I did, I would vote out. No rational person would would wish to be managed as a resource by a remotely located and centralized private corporation. Covert oligarchies with pseudo-election processes have had their millennia and their work always results in self-destruction.

No more trustees and limited referendums. Let's try some real democracy.

Varoufakis and Tsipras are children of the establishment. Pro-EU, pro-central management, pro-capitalist. anti-symbiotism = parasitism.

 
01 Jun 2016 16:09:41
My half brother who is an investment banker in London is voting out (surprisingly), can't stop telling me about it! If I was in your guys positions I would be voting out too. Good luck guys.

{Ed033's Note - You would expect the actual [rigged] vote announced by the government to be around 60% remain, 40% leave.

 
01 Jun 2016 17:46:57
normally I would agree edd but this time you have two establishments infighting and even the monarchy have cold feet.
so rigging the vote one way or another would be strange
(if it is 60/ 40 I take it back lol )

the impression I get it is very split on in or out .
you would think lab voters would remain but unless it directly effects you I think they are more out then in

its a crying shame about yanis varoufakis and Tsipras,
i loved the spirit of the greeks and thought they had a party that were fighting alongside them zari?

good to know kenny your not getting brainwashed by snp spiel about remaining.

a side note david icke did say in one of his books that 2016 would be a year were massive changes happen,
could it be the EU vote that will have a massive knock on effect around the globe?

{Ed033's Note - but as we've seen before if a country votes the opposite way to what they want, they either ignore the vote (France, Netherlands to go into EU) and carry on as it didn't happen or they have a second vote (Ireland to go into EU).

It should be obvious now that Jeremy Corbyn is 100% with the establishment, just like yanis varoufakis and Tsipras were/are.

 
01 Jun 2016 18:58:46
corbyn on a hiding to nothing in or out, I really do not think he is pro establishment, his history proves as much .
the way I see it he might have thought his healthy labour members mandate might have dwindled if he voted out, then you can be sure once that happened the right wing (moderates ) would have called for a leadership election, a bit like what is going to happen to cameron in the next few months.

am drifting off the subject here but corbyn wants to make internal changes to the labour party that will make it a lot smoother for the type of politicians we really need.

 
01 Jun 2016 19:47:31
Out.

We'll remain in though, the vote will be fixed. It's designed to make you feel like you have a say, but the truth of the matter is that we don't.

 
01 Jun 2016 20:14:53
I'm out (surprise surprise) but don't think it'll be rigged don't think it needs to be, they've put the leg work in before hand.

Either way the months following will be very interested as this will split politics as we know it.

{Ed033's Note - We already know that most of the scottish people don't want Westminster telling them what to do so that vote was obviously rigged.

At the last general UK election all the polls had the vote completely split and it looked like it was going to be a mess, but the actual alleged vote was a big majority win for the conservatives. It's highly likely that, that was rigged also.

 
01 Jun 2016 21:15:11
I'll vote out, all-day till the cows come home.

 
01 Jun 2016 21:17:43
Corbyn should have stuck to his convictions. Now he looks like another establishment puppet. Does that help his "healthy" mandate? Instead he's just playing the game most usual politicians play.

It'll be interesting to see what changes he makes though.

 
01 Jun 2016 22:10:11
Point taken ed033, how would they go about it, just release wrong results or do they need to change polling cards?

{Ed033's Note - i don't know how, but they have it sussed now. They have probably scared enough people into remaining but there is always a possibility that it could go against them, so you would think that they would have rigging in place.

 
02 Jun 2016 03:07:17
Out .

 
02 Jun 2016 03:08:04
Out!

 
02 Jun 2016 03:11:16
As well as all cousins
my two brothers
My parents and partner
And her family and her brother and sister
Every one I have spoken to wants out people in shopping centres to taxi drivers to the people I work with.

 
02 Jun 2016 09:01:31
Ilk vote out, not because of Johnstone or Ukip etc but in the quest for real socialism.

 
02 Jun 2016 09:38:43
franky there can be no people's party. We should neither hope nor wait for others to show us the light. Individuals are transient and once these leaders leave these plains we often return to our previous condition. If we instead accept the responsibility of leading ourselves we organically form a democracy.

Hellenes, just like all other human beings, have the spirit fighting through them. As more and more people find the courage to stand up and act while having recognized and accepted the risks from doing so, the closer we will be to true change.

In regards to the politicians mentioned, Tsipras spoke openly about his program at a lodge in Texas before being elected and Varoufakis has always admitted he is pro-EU and pro-establishment. If I recall correctly I shared the part about Tsipras before his election and before the referendum whose results he ignored. Admittedly, until a few years before that I used to also suffer from the disney princess syndrome or spiritus domesticus.

 
02 Jun 2016 09:41:03
Ah real socialism. Which flavours that one?

 
02 Jun 2016 22:01:28
I can't answer for others but socialism for me is an economic system designed to benefit the whole of society. In such a system the beneficiary of the utilization of resources would be society itself, with increased resource availability for the utilization of those deemed by society as having benefited it the most. In doing so we would reward and thus promote characteristics which would enable the prospering of society.

A great advantage of such an economic system is that as societies have no time limitations long-term planning would be required. As long-term planning relies on organization, obfuscation would be less applicable thereby enabling most people to contribute to and participate in the commons.

A lot of the details would be decided by the political system or establishment said economic system would complement.

As the meaning of words changes with time to identify the different systems of organization and imposed forms of tyranny I categorize them according to convergence. All it means is that a comparison is made between initial subject resource availability and final availability.
The importance of convergence is best highlighted in vectors whereby the numerical value takes a secondary role to direction in the determination of the effect of their interactions.

As an example capitalism reduces the availability of resources to those with resources, by design promoting the monopolization of resources. By constricting the availability of resources it acts as a cone (think jet engine) thereby increasing friction, pressure etc.

 
03 Jun 2016 12:12:04
Socialism though is inherently flawed. The main reason being ad you say it relies on organisation. In order to run things the system ends up creating a bureaucratic management system which creates two issues. Firstly the bureaucrats realise that they control the system and knowledge and power corrupts. Its creates a system where the bureaucrats separate from the masses and creates resource monopolization. Secondly bureaucrats in order to justify their own existence interfere in all layers of the system which eventually causes the system to break down.

Marx was a fool as he thought everything in life could be boiled down to money and resources. He knew nothing of human nature. Its like how Freud was obsessed with sex and only pursued one approach. Its a flawed model. Subsequent tinkering hasn't improved the model only worsened it. Which is why I asked which flavour. Marxism. Leninism. Stalinism. Trotskyism. Maoism. Blairism.

Great idea in theory but totally fails in practical application.

 
03 Jun 2016 19:54:48
I hate the labels we get judged by, like I am classed as a socialist , obviously socialism means different things to different people.

I guess its a divide and conquer tactic like left and right wing which I do get caught up in .

 
03 Jun 2016 21:39:52
Kim if organization is a problem then the only alternative would be anarchism. Bureaucrats are intermediaries who neither produce nor design and were necessary only due to our inability to automate the processes they were charged with overseeing. Through the use of technology we can eradicate their need but the ensuing simplification would benefit the prey and not the predators we were bred to sustain.

Capitalism depends on them to act as a buffer between the classes it creates so as to perpetuate their existence. Career politicians, lawyers, bankers, accountants, tax collectors, police officers et al, are all bureaucrats benefiting through parasitic behavior.

Money is the quantification of resources and resources are the charge that enables flow towards one's chosen direction. In other words they are a way to travel along the path, not the path itself.
Freud's absolutism caused his modern downfall, as people are not as sexually suppressed as they were.

Human nature is an artificial label used to describe behaviors we have witnessed but do not condone. None of us live in nature but rather in artificial environments of our creation. Additionally, nature is comprised by an infinite number of organisms with varying behaviors and societal organizational levels.

The transference of theory to practice depends on more than the quality of the theory. 2+2=4 but have you ever tried counting money among thieves?

 
03 Jun 2016 23:14:44
Exactly franky. Who was behind Marx? Who was behind Lenin?

Politics is the new religion. And what is religion used for?